Will Bitcoin / Crypto-currencies play a larger role in online gambling?

**ocreditor** · 23 January 2014, 6:03 am

Originally Posted by John US Traffic

I've started to wonder if some of you who are so unsupportive were so affected by what happened with Neteller and QuickTender that it is greatly clouding your judgment on Bitcoin. Perhaps some of you lost a great deal of money with either or both of them? But Bitcoin is no Neteller and it's no QuickTender - there is extremely little to no comparison whatsoever. I really don't think the anti-Bitcoiners are clearly and accurately seeing and judging its real status in the world and what is really going on with it in terms of continually growing popularity, acceptance, and desire. By comparison, Neteller and QuickTender were as little known about in the world and obscure as a couple of pearls buried in oysters underwater that people walk by as they spend their day at the shore....
.......
By the way, since you're on the subject of "governments," anyone ever heard of Germany? The largest economy in Europe last I checked? Well this quote also appears in the John Stossel article linked to above:

First of all NETEller & QuickTrend are payment methods and not a currency, unless I'm missing something here I don't see how this is relevant to our discussion here.

Second, I'm one of the most supportive man I believe, I want a free currency, a currency which is not "owned" by governments, I really do.
But I wrote what I wrote because I also believe in something which is based on history, which unfortunately always back to the same situation - center of power. This is how the world is built... I'm not saying its good or bad, this is simply a fact of how things are.
, what I'm hinting hear is that this trend will grow to become another "government" currency just like all the rest.

Third, just to emphasize, at the same I totally agree that this concept is a good one in general.

And Lastly, I also want to thank everyone participating this thread because I learned A LOT about bitcoins and alternative currency which I didn't know up till this moment.

**Imperator** · 23 January 2014, 7:42 am

My 2 cents on the matter:

Anyone ignoring bitcoin is outright blind. You can never stop the revolution. You have hundreds of thousands of people (soon to be millions) around the world, collectively working to educate everyone they know about bitcoin and how to obtain it, and every single newly involved person is doing just that to his network of people. Imagine the power this holds. How does anyone stop such a massive effort, and why on Earth would it fail? There is just no common sense in such statements! Bitcoin will continue to grow throughout 2014 and only God knows when and at what price point it will stop.

Now, let's point out 3 major facts WHY bitcoin is good for gambling.

1. 0% Chargebacks - Yes, 0% chargebacks. The largest problem with the gambling industry nowadays, with companies and payment processors losing tens of millions of dollars a year.
2. Instant deposits and Instant withdrawals - Tell me any real money site that can offer that currently?
3. 10 times less need for customer support, risk management, and God knows what other types of employees, GREATLY cutting the operations costs of any operator. Since all deposits and withdrawals are automated, and there are 0 chargebacks and 0 fraud, 90% of your work is already done. All you are left with is marketing and tech support. No longer you need to spend tens of thousands a month on operations to employ tens and hundreds of people to manually verify players, watch for transactions and so on.

**universal4** · 23 January 2014, 7:06 pm

TheGooner is one of the most knowledgeable and least insulting people I have ever had dealings with in more than 10 years here at the GPWA so John, it is YOU who are way out of line with your statement directed at him.

If you want to continue to fire the darts, please make sure they are aimed at me.

As a current member of the card-carrying make-someone-look-bad department as you claim I am, not once have I said that just because you disagree with me on bitcoin that you didn't read. Yet you have stated that anyone that disagrees with you either didn't read what you said or wasn't researching properly.

Bitcoin is one of those things that people just do NOT agree on.

Personally, I think this is bad for the industry in it's current form and I do think that although some people may make some short term money on it, there is a GREAT deal of risk associtated with it, both for those that have any money in it and for the industry itself.

The fact that some countries have either banned their use, are considering doing so, or are unsure about whether they should allow their use due to their volatility or that they are worried their residents could be severely damaged enough that it has the potential to upset their country's economies, should certainly add to the risk awareness.

Rick
Universal4

**universal4** · 23 January 2014, 7:18 pm

Instant deposits and instant withdraws?

That could take place with ANY eWallet, if the casino actually set it up...they just don't.

Years and years ago we had actually gotten pretty close to this with Neteller, and any casino could offer it now with Neteller or any other wallet, but they do not set it up that way.

Bitcoin deposits and withdraws would work with the EXACT same delays if all withdraws still have to go through the same review process that other eWallet withdraws do, so to claim there is that much more speed is (in my opinion) misleading.

As far as I understand, if a casino processes the withdraw for Neteller the money is available instantly upon processing, as would a bitcoin payment, paypal etc... Obviously any ewallet system is faster than bank wires, checks etc....

Also, when comparing speed, when a person recieves a bitcoin payment, they now have to go to a bitcoin exhange (pay a small fee) and change the coins into real currency, then wait until the currency is transferred to them so they can get their hands on the cash. When a person recieves a Neteller payment, they go to the atm and withdraw the currency.

Yes some bitcoin exchanges are working directly with some banks, but another thing I found quite interesting in recent research, banks are asking anyone they currently work with within the bitcoin realm to keep it secret and not divulge what banks are working with what bitcoin vendors and exchanges. (it's as if the banks themselves do not want the extra scrutiny or others to find out they are involved at all)

Rick
Universal4

**John US Traffic** · 24 January 2014, 2:34 am

Originally Posted by universal4

TheGooner is one of the most knowledgeable and least insulting people I have ever had dealings with in more than 10 years here at the GPWA so John, it is YOU who are way out of line with your statement directed at him.

No Rick, the truth is the exact opposite, and what you have done here is a blatant display of extreme cronyism and plain disingenuousness, a real embarrassment to the GPWA, as was Gooner's off base straw man diatribe about imaginary offenses I wasn't even engaging in, about a mere good faith personal anecdote of mine added aside from everything I have clearly been advocating and explaining here all along about the benefits of Bitcoin for the industry and why and for what type of use I and some others recommend it, and his derogatory and disparaging remarks directed at me. If I were in charge of the GPWA I'd be pretty embarrassed right now, and this kind of slick dishonesty is exactly what the industry does not need. Oh what a surprise that you would swoop in to defend your buddy and esteemed associate of 10 years and try to turn the table back on me at the same time. Oh I'm so surprised...

Originally Posted by universal4

If you want to continue to fire the darts, please make sure they are aimed at me.

Yes, do keep up that slick effort to make me out to look like the bad guy and like the one who has really been hurling the "darts," Rick. One wonders who or how many can really be fooled by that kind of tactic, though...

Originally Posted by universal4

not once have I said that just because you disagree with me on bitcoin that you didn't read.

Wow, that's great to know, Rick, and neither have I, so we have that in common. In fact, I'll give you $1,000 by PayPal if you can show where I ever did that, especially in my reply to the embarrassment of an irrelevant personal attack post by your good pal of 10 years. I will also give another $1,000 to GPWA itself. I may even give another $10,000 if you can ever even show where your good pal was ever even actually disagreeing with any true representation at all of what I have been advocating here about Bitcoin in his last little diatribe to begin with as well. Good luck with that, Rick.

Originally Posted by universal4

Yet you have stated that anyone that disagrees with you either didn't read what you said or wasn't researching properly.

Rick, I'm honestly beginning to suspect that in your own mind you may even believe this slick little false statement and extreme distortion of truth you have just made about me there to cap off this little tirade toward me, though I still have serious doubts you really do. Unfortunately, however, you have failed in the truth and honesty department again. I'd offer you more monetary rewards to demonstrate where any of that occurred as well, but I think I'm done with you now in terms of trying to elicit any principle or integrity of tactics on your part.

Originally Posted by universal4

Personally, I think this is bad for the industry in it's current form and I do think that although some people may make some short term money on it, there is a GREAT deal of risk associtated with it, both for those that have any money in it and for the industry itself.

But while I may have given up on your tactics and principles, I certainly don't mind addressing some of your objection points to Bitcoin a bit further.

So here we are back on "GREAT risk" and "money in it" again. So I'll just briefly summarize what I've been saying all along including with illustrative news quotes - again. The maximum "risk" involved before any theoretical worst case scenario possible before the sky is falling and one abandons Bitcoin is: for the player, the amount they were already intent on risking losing in an online gambling episode to begin with, an amount they are already prepared to lose - if Bitcoin crashes, they just don't use it anymore; for the affiliate, a single monthly payment at most - if Bitcoin happens to crash, they go into their lovely little account management interface and change their preferred payment option to something new; for the operators and affiliate programs, whatever risk-managed amounts they may happen to be holding if they are holding any significant amount at all before any signs and warnings occur and the house of cards just suddenly collapses, as we all know there is certainly no such thing as perfectly eliminating all possible risk of any kind with anything. What I have been making clear here all along is that this is not about advocating having "money in it" at all, and one of the great advantages is that you don't have to continually keep "money in it" if you don't want to. It's designed for rapid liquidation. I have pointed this out again and again, including how businesses like Overstock and the two Vegas hotels, for example, plan to engage in rapid risk-managed liquidation instead of actually holding Bitcoin.

Originally Posted by universal4

The fact that some countries have either banned their use

Well Rick, I'm afraid I may not be "researching properly" or as thoroughly as you, so who did that? I'm only aware of one really notable country that has done that, China - and as if anyone alive on planet earth in the developed world and not living under a rock would have any reason whatsoever to be surprised that a regime like that would decide to ban it. Oh yes, oh what a surprise that they did. But who else? You'll have to pardon my ignorance because maybe you know more as to what other countries actually banned it if any, and if any of them even matter. And no doubt so many online gambling customers handled by GPWA members must be from there as well. Now I, on the other hand, have pointed out how Germany (anyone ever heard of Germany?) has officially embraced Bitcoin. Can you do better than that?

Originally Posted by universal4

are considering doing so, or are unsure about whether they should allow their use due to their volatility or that they are worried their residents could be severely damaged enough that it has the potential to upset their country's economies, should certainly add to the risk awareness.

Yes, yes, yes, we are all aware of the need to maintain that risk awareness. And which nations are really considering and worrying all that you have suggested there, or are you going a bit too far and putting words in their mouths, too? But the point is moot, as I have already pointed out the "great risk" involved in merely taking advantage of all the known advantages with Bitcoin which Imperator has also expressed so well in a risk-managed way while one can for as long as it lasts.

**Imperator** · 24 January 2014, 4:24 am

Originally Posted by universal4

Instant deposits and instant withdraws?

That could take place with ANY eWallet, if the casino actually set it up...they just don't.

Years and years ago we had actually gotten pretty close to this with Neteller, and any casino could offer it now with Neteller or any other wallet, but they do not set it up that way.

Bitcoin deposits and withdraws would work with the EXACT same delays if all withdraws still have to go through the same review process that other eWallet withdraws do, so to claim there is that much more speed is (in my opinion) misleading.

As far as I understand, if a casino processes the withdraw for Neteller the money is available instantly upon processing, as would a bitcoin payment, paypal etc... Obviously any ewallet system is faster than bank wires, checks etc....

Also, when comparing speed, when a person recieves a bitcoin payment, they now have to go to a bitcoin exhange (pay a small fee) and change the coins into real currency, then wait until the currency is transferred to them so they can get their hands on the cash. When a person recieves a Neteller payment, they go to the atm and withdraw the currency.

Yes some bitcoin exchanges are working directly with some banks, but another thing I found quite interesting in recent research, banks are asking anyone they currently work with within the bitcoin realm to keep it secret and not divulge what banks are working with what bitcoin vendors and exchanges. (it's as if the banks themselves do not want the extra scrutiny or others to find out they are involved at all)

Rick
Universal4

And what you are saying is a fact. Not a single real money casino currently offers instant withdrawals. However, as we speak 90% of the bitcoin casinos do offer instant withdrawals, and with success... and players love it. So this is one thing that bitcoin brings to the table.

Originally Posted by John US Traffic

Well Rick, I'm afraid I may not be "researching properly" or as thoroughly as you, so who did that? I'm only aware of one really notable country that has done that, China - and as if anyone alive on planet earth in the developed world and not living under a rock would have any reason whatsoever to be surprised that a regime like that would decide to ban it. Oh yes, oh what a surprise that they did. But who else? You'll have to pardon my ignorance because maybe you know more as to what other countries actually banned it if any, and if any of them even matter. And no doubt so many online gambling customers handled by GPWA members must be from there as well. Now I, on the other hand, have pointed out how Germany (anyone ever heard of Germany?) has officially embraced Bitcoin. Can you do better than that?

Actually as a matter of fact, China DID NOT ban bitcoin. What they did was to classify it as commodity, with properties similar to gold, and they released a notice that merchants/banks should not accept it as a payment method, since it is not a currency. However, trading bitcoin on exchanges remained legal, as is trading gold, silver, oil and other speculative markets. Even if one takes a look at bitcoin trading volumes, one might notice that China remains the leading country by market volumes every single day.

**ocreditor** · 24 January 2014, 11:40 am

Originally Posted by Imperator

And what you are saying is a fact. Not a single real money casino currently offers instant withdrawals. However, as we speak 90% of the bitcoin casinos do offer instant withdrawals, and with success... and players love it. So this is one thing that bitcoin brings to the table.
......

This is actually very interesting I didn't know that bitcoin brings instant withdrawals, can you give more details ?
When you say "instant" you mean within minutes ?
Which casino for example ?

Thanks

**universal4** · 24 January 2014, 12:48 pm

Actually China is tightening controls on Bitcoin more than that.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-1...ed-retaliation

And since the People’s Bank of China has banned payment firms from working with bitcoin exchanges (bitcoin banks) it does in fact appear residents of China will be restricted from using it if they expect to use banks in China.
https://forexmagnates.com/china-bans-...oin-exchanges/

Having a payment method that is trying to establish itself as a currency and having banks in a country state that it's residents should not use it as a currency (which is saying the same thing as saying you can't use it to pay for stuff) sounds like they are trying to stop it's use.

Back in mid December China's central bank had already started limiting bitcoin use, and more recent news shows they are expanding these limitations.
https://money.cnn.com/2013/12/05/inve...itcoin/?iid=EL

Alibaba, China's largest internet retailer also just stated they will NOT accept bitcoin, which wen into effect days ago.
https://money.cnn.com/2014/01/09/news/bitcoin-alibaba/

I think this is key since the country where the highest percentage of bitcoin exchanges (bitcoin banks) are based in China.

There have been many many reports the past year about how many other countries are studying crypto currencies closely, as well as watching how things unfold in China since they too are concerned about the same things, that the crypto currecies and the way their exchanges are designed allow people to completly circumvent laws as well as financial safeguards.

Rick
Universal4

**universal4** · 24 January 2014, 1:10 pm

Here you accused me of not listening, just because I disagreed with you.

really seems like with you every single thing I post just "goes in one ear and out the other" so to speak,

Here you suggest that just by reading this thread any honest person has to agree with you.

And I'll say it again, I think an honest and thorough review of the whole thread would and should tend to conclude otherwise.

And here you accused me of being dishonest.

And I still sure don't know why you are apparently so unfavorably disposed, to be honest.

Yes, I did actually react to some of your attacks leveled at me and fired back trying to show you that you were making it personal. Each time I attempted to keep the thread on track, and that is why forums have rules against members from making any issue personal.

I also lightheartedly attempted to ask you that if you were going to make it personal, keeping the attacks aimed at me is preferred over personally attacking other members.

Do NOT personally attack any member here. Disagree with and tear apart any single point made, but do NOT make it personal.

There will always be opposing views, and it does NOT mean they didn't read or comprehend what was said, they just disagree.

Rick
Universal4

**universal4** · 24 January 2014, 1:20 pm

Imperator,

I have seen some of the casinos that accept bitcoin making claims they are all instant withdraws, but have not personally seen this in action.

Are you saying that as long as you play using bitcoin the casino makes no fraud checks, nor verifies the person cashing out is the same person that made the witdraw?

Are you saying that the casinos do not do any verifications that bonus terms were met?

Are you saying they do not check for collusion or any of the other normal security checks a casino does before cashing out players winnings?

Are you saying these same casinos make NONE of these checks when a player uses bitcoin but does so when they use Neteller or any other payment method?

If those checks that casinos do feel are needed, are actually done before the withdraw, then it really isn't instant, if the checks are not done, it sounds like the casinos with this policy are letting themselves wide open to fraud and abuse.

Rick
Universal4

**John US Traffic** · 24 January 2014, 9:58 pm

Originally Posted by universal4

Here you accused me of not listening, just because I disagreed with you.

really seems like with you every single thing I post just "goes in one ear and out the other" so to speak,

Well, this was your real original statement which I just replied to last in post #125:

Originally Posted by univesal4

not once have I said that just because you disagree with me on bitcoin that you didn't read.

Rick, you have a disappointing habit of seeing so much in terms of being "accused." But what you have said here regarding the older quote above is simply not true. I certainly did not "accuse" you of anything there. What I expressed to you was simply my true and honest opinion of what you "seem[ed] like" based on everything I was writing and everything and every way in which you were writing, plain and simple. And most definitely not "just because [you] disagreed with [me]." I certainly do not always have or form that as my true and honest opinion of someone merely because someone disagrees with me, quite the contrary. And I suspect all of us can relate to that.

Originally Posted by universal4

Here you suggest that just by reading this thread any honest person has to agree with you.

And I'll say it again, I think an honest and thorough review of the whole thread would and should tend to conclude otherwise.

Okay, this was also your real original statement which I just replied to last in post #125:

Originally Posted by universal4

Yet you have stated that anyone that disagrees with you either didn't read what you said or wasn't researching properly.

Again, what you have written regarding the older quote above is simply not true, and a serious distortion of what I wrote. Aside from the rather notable disparity between what you write now about old quotes and what you really wrote most recently which I also reponded to most recently in post #125, there is the issue of extreme twisting and distortion of what I wrote earlier and the inaccuracy of your representation of it involved. You say I suggested one "has to," but I only wrote about how I thought something would "tend to." Is this not a normal way of occasionally putting something that all of us can relate to as well, instead of some terrible "accusation" and condemnation? And this is still merely just my good faith, sincere and honest opinion merely - that if one reviews the whole thread in a spirit of intellectual honesty, without preconceived prejudices, ulterior motives, or the favoritism born of cronyism, and so forth, they will tend to agree that Imperator and I and anyone else who has posted supportively and substantively in favor of Bitcoin having a larger and potentially beneficial role in online gambling have won this debate. Maybe not perfectly won it in every conceivable way or beyond any possible concern one could still imagine, but definitely won and the case made. I suspect all of us can relate to things like the above regarding other topics and disagreements in life as well.

"Slicker than slick...Not!":

Originally Posted by universal4

And here you accused me of being dishonest.

And I still sure don't know why you are apparently so unfavorably disposed, to be honest.

Now this one is so unbelievable it defies description, the kind of bizarre action that really tends to give a person a wake up moment about exactly what they are really dealing with, in my opinion. Normally I would be completely done with you now, but unfortunately in this setting there are things at stake for the benefit of all of us and the industry in general in terms of this great public "contest of ideas," so I will respond nonetheless because of that and only for that. So here is post #75:

Originally Posted by John US Traffic

I don't know why you are apparently so unfavorably disposed to be honest. It doesn't have to replace what we know as money [...]

And here is Rick immediately seizing the opportunity to "accuse" me of "accus[ing]" him of being less than honest in post #76, because I happened to open with a well known phrase and idiomatic expression in this country which we both share about me being honest, i.e., "to be honest":

Originally Posted by universal4

I am being completely honest, and why just because I post an oposing view you would accuse me of being less than honest.

And then here I am in post #79 explaining the above in no uncertain terms and the most definite and emphatic terms possibly known to man, immediately before the quote Rick has placed here in order to "accuse" me of having "accused" him of having been "dishonest":

Originally Posted by John US Traffic

Don't you think you've jumped the gun here, Rick? You are a network administrator according to your profile as well as a resident of Florida according to your whois data, and you are not familiar with the normal use of the phrase "to be honest" as being nothing of the sort against you, but rather a statement about oneself, and a very common phrase often used in the course of ordinary communication - even if, for example, there doesn't happen to be some immediately present pausing device like a "," for instance preceding the phrase in print? Is there really anything in the context of the rest of the post that would even support an honest claim of understanding that someone was doing anything of the sort against you? No thought of even asking first perhaps, maybe even considering a "benefit of the doubt" approach given how common the phrase "to be honest" is in this society? Rick, I honestly do hope that you honestly understood me to be doing anything of the sort toward you, however, which I must admit I'm having a very hard time believing, and that this is not instead just a cheap shot dishonest attempt to make me look bad here in the forum. So be assured, I never doubted you were being completely honest in your perplexing degree of opposition to Bitcoin...to be honest.

And then here is the quote Rick has placed here to establish his current accusation that I previously accused him of being dishonest, which came immediately after the above in post #79:

Originally Posted by John US Traffic

And I still sure don't know why you are apparently so unfavorably disposed, to be honest.

And then here is Rick in post #86 not only not trying to then refute or deny everything I just wrote in post #79, but even confirming that he is indeed familiar with that familiar phrase, "to be honest" (bold added):

Originally Posted by universal4

Just because someone disagrees that bitcoin is a viable alternative to currency does NOT mean they do not understand how it works or have not researched it.

And to infer that just because someone is involved in the IT field should automatically accept bitcoin is nonsense. There are plenty of those within the it field (as well as financial markets and just about all other walks of life) that are also against it.

And by the way, I am very familiar with the term "to be honest".

Rick
Universal4

<sigh />...and, <wow />.

Originally Posted by universal4

Yes, I did actually react to some of your attacks leveled at me and fired back trying to show you that you were making it personal.

No, there were no "attacks leveled" at Rick; he's not the victim; I'm not the terrible bad guy; and it's certainly not me who made anything "personal" if anyone did that. Extraordinary.

"Mind Boggling...":

Originally Posted by universal4

Each time I attempted to keep the thread on track, and that is why forums have rules against members from making any issue personal.

Is it even possible that he actually believes what he just wrote there? Read the whole thread, see who's been repeatedly trying to keep it on track and repeatedly being the one explicitly addressing the issue of keeping it on track ("larger role in online gambling," thread title anyone?) and then decide for yourselves...

"Unreal...":

Originally Posted by universal4

I also lightheartedly attempted to ask you that if you were going to make it personal, keeping the attacks aimed at me is preferred over personally attacking other members.

Do NOT personally attack any member here. Disagree with and tear apart any single point made, but do NOT make it personal.

Yes, surely John US Traffic has committed all of these terrible offenses, including willfully even after not only being asked nicely no less, but also after being warned...Not.

So much of what Rick has written above and previously falls into the category of "if I hadn't read it for myself I wouldn't have even believed it." Moreover, this is hardly my first rodeo in online discussion forums. Setting that stage here for that eventual forum ban anyone, yes?

Yes, I've been around the block a few times and seen this episode before, so go ahead and ban me if you want, as that's pretty obviously what you're leading up to now. Perhaps it will also reinforce a nice desired affect on everyone else vis-?vis something I suggested before.

Overall, truly astonishing beyond description, but I guess also valuably if also sadly enlightening as well. I guess I shouldn't be the least bit surprised by now really, but to some degree I still am...to be honest. I understand the position others are in here, however. Even if others see what is and has so plainly and clearly been going on with this and previous posts, they may be so concerned about their own place on this forum that they would never want to say anything to that effect openly, especially the programs themselves who are eager to simply make money and attract affiliates as well as have a good time. Sad, though.

In all of this, lately I really can't help thinking about and being reminded of...J. Todd, whose videos I have also enjoyed so much over the years. That's right. Especially also his member name: Integrity. And the APCW, in particular and especially that statement I have seen so often about "Fighting for trust, honesty and integrity in the online gaming industry!" or some variation thereof, which I've also always liked, and which sadly I'm not seeing here anymore I noticed this evening. I'm just not finding those things here now.

**universal4** · 24 January 2014, 10:25 pm

I copied and pasted your words, so there is no distortion.

Rick
Universal4

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